Tuesday, March 08, 2005

our favourite game

Icarus continues the dialogue. interestingly, his comments in the second paragraph (red) echo the ideas from the 'side note' of his earlier posting (blue) that originally drew me into his circle... good to see you are consistent, buddy!

"As for life support systems and christian belief, it seems like prolonging life through manmade technological interventions is equivilant to prematurely ending life. It is, in a way, playing God. Perhaps Christians should take the view that when God calls you home, when it's your time to die, that you just let it happen, you dont leave early and you don't arrive late. Leave it to God.

Frankly I don't understand why, knowing that once you die you will go to heaven, a christian would use technology to prolong life past what God, or nature, has ordained. I suppose, even knowing you will go to heaven, there still exists some anxiety about death and seperation from loved ones. "

"On a side note, why is it that people, especially Christians it seems, are so afraid of death. Often I see Christians cling on to any sliver of life as though they knew they were destined for damnation. If you believe you are going to heaven, and you know how wonderful heaven is, why the hesitation. You'd think they would be leaving at their first opportunity, yet I often see them vehemently fighting to keep people alive who are shells of human beings, and who are only being sustained through extensive medical and technological intervention. I just don't get it. "

yeah- playing God has been our favourite game since the fall...

well, that and killing each other- kinda sad how those two are related. the power over life and death has been sinister solace for us since we failed to deal well with the knowledge of good and evil. death follows sin- sin implies death. but it's like, if we can't master the cause then we will at least take charge of the effect. we bought (and continue to purchase updates) into the lie that being 'like God' means power when actually being 'like God' means perspective... at least that's what genesis 3 and its fallout say to me.

robert gerzon, author of "finding serenity in the age of anxiety" (i know i know, it was on oprah's reading list a few years back... it was a gift from somebody!) speaks of 'sacred anxiety' which is simply the knowledge that we are going to die. he identifies this as the foundation for all religious thought- ie: death is inevitable, but then what follows death? very few of us are comfortable with the idea that done is done. some would contest that we have created a heaven in our minds to help us feel better, others assert that heaven is hope and hope is crucial to survival... but i think that i agree with tim rice (i've taken to quoting jesus christ superstar lately) when he speaks of people having 'too much heaven on their minds.'

i don't know- i don't think of heaven much in the sense of spiritual geography. the key for me is not the place of the 'unclouded day' or the 'crystal sea' or 'streets of gold' (all nice metaphors, but limited in their scope to physical creation- weather, elements, precious metals, riches and beauty.) my theology of heaven and hell is probably too simplistically relational: heaven is eternal now, God present; hell is eternal now, God absent.

c.s. lewis carved it out neatly in "mere christianity" (i think it's in this one...) when he describes heaven as an eternal trajectory that begins upon the moment of surrender to God. in other words, when we decide to walk with God daily- allowing his presence to impact our thoughts, our relationships, our art, our industry, whatever- then heaven for us has already begun. it's like a geometric ray, having a fixed starting point and no endpoint. death is just another point on the line.

(i'm not even going to try to argue my quaint and convenient little theory of time severence in death, because lewis' cosmic ray is such a nice picture. like i would have anything valid to say to clive anyway.)

perhaps the main reason that people fight so hard to save those that they might be more merciful to simply release, has nothing to do with playing God, but everything to do with basic human selfishness and technological progress- perhaps the playing God thing is our attempt at preserving our own relationships and interpersonal connections as far as we can see for sure. (i think that i've just completed a loop that began at the conclusion of the 'rollerball' posting.)

my blogfriend ShortStoryDude (http://haveyouexperiencedthis.blogspot.com/) recently lost his father. i sent him a comment that had someone else's incredible (in my opinion) wisdom on mortality and perspective and human loss... i hope that these words helped but not hurt. they have always been reason for me and whatever the case, they serve as probably the best thing i think i have to say on this one:

"i went to a concert a few years back performed by a guy who had just lost his best friend to a heart condition at 40. noticeably melancholy, he apologized to the crowd using words that i've never forgotten (although i'd better say that this is a paraphrase, not a quote):'i'm sorry, but i just don't feel like playing tonight. some of you know that i just lost my dearest friend to something that i just don't understand. although when i 'cross over' myself i will scan that sea of faces looking for that one familiar smile, there's this short in between time that i'm having trouble with... called the rest of my life."

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Blogger marcythewhore said...

Tuesday, March 08, 2005

Today is a good day to die in a massage parlor

Marcy says: Massage parlors are not just for sex chat. You can die in a massage parlor if you are not careful with your Happy Endings........marcythewhore

The Zen Librarian said to a patron: "If you bring back this book after its due date, you will be fined. If you do not bring back the book after its due date, you will be fined." The patron was instantly enlightened.

Voices of the past speak volumes...............by Terri Jean

Lessons of Worship"The Indian loved to worship. From birth to death he revered his surroundings. He considered himself born in the luxurious lap of Mother Earth and no place to him was humble." ~ Luther Standing Bear ~ Oglala Sioux, 1868-1937

"Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view,and Demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble deathsong for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and bow to none..." ~ Tecumseh ~ Shawnee, 1768 - 1813

"The Great Spirit will not punish us for what we do not know."~ Red Jacket ~

"The Great Spirit is in all things, he is in the air we breathe. The Great Spirit is our Father, but the Earth is our Mother. She nourishes us, that which we put into the ground she returns to us..." ~ Big Thunder (Bedagi) ~ Wabanaki Algonquin

"From Wakan-Tanka, the Great Mystery, comes all power. It is from Wakan-Tanka that the holy man has wisdom and the power to heal and make holy charms. Man knows that all healing plants are given by Wakan-Tanka, therefore they are holy. So too is the buffalo holy,because it is the gift of Wakan-Tanka." ~ Flat-Iron ~

"All things are the works of the Great Spirit. We should know that He is within all things: the trees, the grasses, the rivers, the mountains, and all the four legged-animals, and the winged peoples; and even more important, we should understand that He is alsoabove all these things and peoples. ~ Black Elk ~ Oglala Sioux

Lessons of the Earth"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children." ~ Ancient Indian Proverb ~

"We are part of the Earth, and the Earth a part of us." ~ Seattle ~

Lessons of Tradition" Out of the Indian approach to life there came a great freedom,an intense and absorbing respect for life, enriching faith in a Supreme Power, and principles of truth, honesty, generosity, equity, and brotherhood as a guide to mundane relations."~ Luther Standing Bear ~ Oglala Sioux, 1868-1937

" ... everything on the earth has a purpose, every disease an herb to cure it, and every person a mission. This is the Indian theory of existence." ~ Mourning Dove ~ Salish 1888-1936

Lessons on Life"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset." ~ Crowfoot ~ Blackfoot warrior and orator

"While living I want to live well. I know I have to die sometime, but even if the heavens were to fall on me I want to do what is right..."~ Goyathlay (Geronimo) ~ Apache Medicine Man and War Chief, 1829 - 1909

"Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together... All things connect." ~ Chief Seattle ~
"When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the morning light, for your life and strength. Give thanks for your food and the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies in yourself." ~ Tecumseh ~

"The path of glory is rough and many gloomy hours obscure it. Maythe Great Spirit shed light on yours." ~ Black Hawk ~ 1833

General Advice"If a man loses anything and goes back and looks carefully for it he will find it..." ~ Sitting Bull ~

"Even as you desire good treatment, so render it."~ Handsome Lake ~

"To clothe a man falsely is only to distress his spirit..."~ Standing Bear ~

Do right always. It will give you satisfaction in life."~ Wovoka ~ 1889

"Whatever the gains, whatever the loss, they are yours."~ Five Wounds ~

"Neither anger nor fear shall find lodging in your mind."~ Dekanawidah ~

Lessons on Death"When it comes time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home."~ Chief Aupumut, Mohican. 1725

"Hoka hey! Follow me! Follow me! Today is a good day to fight, today is a good day to die!" ~ Crazy Horse ~ Oglala Sioux, is said to have yelled as he rode into battle at Rosebud in June 1876

"Do not grieve. Misfourtunes will happen to the wisest and best of men. Death will come and always out of season. It is the command of the Great Spirit, and all nations and people must obey. What is past and cannot be prevented should not be grived for... Misfoutunesdo not flourish particularly in our path. They grow everywhere."~ Big Elk~ chief of the Omahas, delivered a funeral oration, June 14th 1815, at a great council at Portage des Sioux, when death took one of his Indian leaders, Black Buffalo

Lessons of Truth"Good words do not last long unless they amount to something." ~ Chief Joseph ~ Nez Perce

"I have always taught you that a liar is not worthy of being considered a man..." ~ Stung Arm ~

"To the Indian, words that are true sink deep into his heartwhere they remain; he never forgets them." ~ Four Guns ~

It does not require many words to speak the truth. ~ Chief Joseph ~ Nez Perce
posted by marcythewhore at 10:41 AM

Blogger marcythewhore said...

Tuesday, March 08, 2005

"life- don't talk to me about life"

Blogger Icarus Goodman said...

Thanks for keeping me on my toes, I have to be more careful not to repeat myself. I don't want to sound like a broken record. When I was a Christian I shared your view of what heaven would be like (more or less) the problem, I suppose is that we can only think of heaven in terms of things that we have already expereinced. That's why heaven always turns out to be something very similar to life, minus the bad stuff. But of course, if there is a heaven, it could be something so completely different from anything we have expereinced that we could not imagine it.

I once heard a girl on a bus say that while she could see how believing in heaven was a bit irrational, she couldn's stand the thought of there not being a heaven. I also have a friend who ust avoids the whole subject of death and eternity because it just freaks him out. The fear of death, or the unknown really, is very strong. As for myself, I hope there is a heaven or some sort of existence after death, but I have not heard any arguments strong enough to make me believe it.

I also think you bring up a good point about people having too much heaven on their minds. Unfortunatly, I too often have seen people so concerned and so looking forward to heaven that they neglect the life they are living right now.

Blogger marcythewhore said...

Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moocow coming down along the road and this moocow that was coming down along the road met a nicens little boy named baby tuckoo
His father told him that story: his father looked at him through a glass: he had a hairy face.

He was baby tuckoo. The moocow came down the road where Betty Byrne lived: she sold lemon platt.

O, the wild rose blossoms
On the little green place.

He sang that song. That was his song.

O, the green wothe botheth.

When you wet the bed first it is warm then it gets cold. His mother put on the oilsheet. That had the queer smell.

His mother had a nicer smell than his father. She played on the piano the sailor's hornpipe for him to dance. He danced:

Tralala lala,
Tralala tralaladdy,
Tralala lala,
Tralala lala.

Uncle Charles and Dante clapped. They were older than his father and mother but uncle Charles was older than Dante.

Dante had two brushes in her press. The brush with the maroon velvet back was for Michael Davitt and the brush with the green velvet back was for Parnell. Dante gave him a cachou every time he brought her a piece of tissue paper.

The Vances lived in number seven. They had a different father and mother. They were Eileen's father and mother. When they were grown up he was going to marry Eileen. He hid under the table. His mother said:

-- O, Stephen will apologize.

Dante said:

-- O, if not, the eagles will come and pull out his eyes.--

Pull out his eyes,
Pull out his eyes.

Pull out his eyes,
Pull out his eyes,

The wide playgrounds were swarming with boys. All were shouting and the prefects urged them on with strong cries. The evening air was pale and chilly and after every charge and thud of the footballers the greasy leather orb flew like a heavy bird through the grey light. He kept on the fringe of his line, out of sight of his prefect, out of the reach of the rude feet, feigning to run now and then. He felt his body small and weak amid the throng of the players and his eyes were weak and watery. Rody Kickham was not like that: he would be captain of the third line all the fellows said.

Rody Kickham was a decent fellow but Nasty Roche was a stink. Rody Kickham had greaves in his number and a hamper in the refectory. Nasty Roche had big hands. He called the Friday pudding dog- in-the-blanket. And one day be had asked:

-- What is your name?

Stephen had answered: Stephen Dedalus.

Blogger Icarus Goodman said...

Is it just me or does no one understand what marcythewhore is talking about?

I thought that you could probably tell that I was not a Christian from some of my other posts on my blog, but I wil tell a little story about my religious life.

I was born and raised into Christianity. At first my whole family went to a Methodist church. But when I was around 9, I suppose, my mother wanted to go to a different church. She believed the Bible was without error, and the church didn't agree with this. So she went to her childhood church which was southern baptist. Me and my brother decided to go with my mom (we thought the sunday school classes were funner at the new church) adn my oldest brother and father continued to go to the Methodist church.

I was a Christian for 19 years, until the summer after my first year of college. At this point I had started to read some Ayn Rand and was amazed at how much I agreed with her. Except I thought she was incorrect on her athiesm. While reading a website that contrasted the philosophies of Rand with Thomas Jefferson I learned that Jefferson was a Deist. At the time I had never heard of a Deist so I searched and found The Age Of Reason part 1 and 2 by Thomas Paine. In this he presented both theorhetical arguments against revealed religion and textual criticism of the Bible. After reading the whole of his arguments I was a little frightened. I was afraid I would have to reject Christianity, a thought I never even imagined being possible before. But I could not lie to myself, it was either reject Christianity or decieve myself so I could continue being Christian. So I converted to Deism. To sum it up, I was presented with arguments and questions about Christianity that could not be answered to my satisfaction.

Eventually I would change from Deism to Atheism, you can read my reasons for that in my post titled "God isn't dead, he never existed" in my February archive.

Once I converted from Christianity my views on life become much more consistent and frankly,even though I was always a happy guy, I was even happier. The funny thing is that it was only after I converted from Christianity that I really started to read the Bible. I read the whole of the new testament and was working on the old when I started taking a class (that I'm still taking) called "Who wrote the Hebrew Bible" I've only made it up throgh Isaiah, but already I feel like I understand the Bible so much more than I ever did as a Christian. But the important thing is that since converting I have only grown stronger in my beliefs and frankly looking back now, I can hardly believe that I used to believe in Christianity, it seems just as unimaginable as rejecting Christianinty did when I was a Christian.

I hope this doesn't change what, to this point, has been very good dialogue between us. I am always game for discussing or debating religious issues, or if you wish to not touch that subject, I am ok with that too. The only important thing I need when discussing an issue someone is that we both have the same end goal, and that of course is to discover the truth. I wrote about this concept in the post titled "The Foundation" which can be read on my blog's front page way at the bottom.

Anyways, if you have any questions or comments please feel free, I'd actually be interested to read how you came to Christ if you don't mind. Thanks.

Blogger jollybeggar said...

sorry marcy, i'm not a mason! anyway, where is the whitty title?

these are the best i could find...
(but inferior the titles i leave behind)

twas brillig, and the slithy toves
did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
all mimsy were the borogroves,
and the mome raths outgrabe.

'beware the jabberwock, my son!
the jaws that bit, the claws that catch! beware the jubjub bird, and shun the frumious dandersnatch!'

he took his vorpal sword in hand:
long time the manxome foe he sought-

so rested he by the tumtum tree, and stood awhile in thought.

and, as in uffish thought he stood, the jabberwock, with eyes of flame, came whiffling through the tulgey wood, and burbled as it came!

one, two! one, two!

and through and through the vorpal blade went snicker-snack! he left it dead, and with its head he went galumphing back.

'and, hast thou slain the jabberwock?
come to my arms, my beamish boy!
o frabjous day! callooh! callay!'
he chortled in his joy.

twas brillig, and the slithy toves
did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
all mimsy were the borogroves,
and the mome raths outgrabe.
(lewis carol)

"That's a deer-shooting hat."
"Like hell it is." I took it off and looked at it. I sort of closed one eye, like I was taking aim at it. "This is a people shooting hat," I said "I shoot people in this hat."
(j.d. salinger)

Blogger jollybeggar said...

icarus and i were trying to decipher the rather odd code that kept the real message in marcy's comment obscured. i made a wise-guy remark about not being a mason which was probably fueled by both my reading of 'the holy blood and the holy grail' and the recent viewing of the film 'national treasure.' it was meant to be only a remark, all you masons who blog out there... please don't have me mysteriously removed from the grid!

well, the odd syntax is not masonic or in any other way esoteric in nature. it's the opening couple of pages from james joyce "portrait of the artist as a young man" (for anyone that might have been wondering- 'stephen dedalus is his real name... ) nice work, marcy, in amalgamating icarus' little red hen story and my blog on the names we choose to live by.

interesting or not, james joyce also wrote 'ulysses' which is number 1 on esther lombardi's list of top 10 books banned. (included below are the other nine as well, faithfully transcribed in their unabridged entirety- NOT)

the real question, i guess is who the heck is esther lombardi when she's at home?

1) Ulysses
by James Joyce. Dover. Published in 1918, this book was banned on sexual grounds. In 1922, 500 copies of the book were burned by the United States Department of the Post Office.
2) Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
by Mark Twain. Norton. Published in 1884, "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" has been banned on social grounds. Concord Public Library called the book "trash suitable only for the slums," when it first banned the novel in 1885.
3) Madame Bovary
by Gustave Flaubert. Oxford. Published in 1857, "Madame Bovary" was banned on sexual grounds. In the trial, Imperial Advocate Ernest Pinard said, "No gauze for him, no veils--he gives us nature in all her nudity and crudity."
4) The Scarlet Letter
by Nathaniel Hawthorne. Norton. Published in 1850, "The Scarlet Letter" was censored on social grounds. The book has been challenged under claims that it is "pornographic and obscene."
5) Uncle Tom's Cabin
by Harriet Beecher Stowe. Norton. Published in 1852, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" was controversial. When President Lincoln saw Stowe, he purportedly said, "So you’re the little woman who wrote the book that made this great war." The novel has been been banned for language concerns.
6) Of Mice and Men
by John Steinbeck. Penguin. Published in 1937, Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" has been frequently banned on social grounds. The book has been called "offensive" and "vulgar" because of the language and characterization.
7) Brave New World
by Aldous Huxley. HarperCollins. Published in 1932, "Brave New World" has been banned with complaints about the language used, as well morality issues. "Brave New World" is a satirical novel, with a stringent division of the classes, drugs, and free love.
8) Lady Chatterley's Lover
by D.H. Lawrence. Random House. Published in 1928, "Lady Chatterley's Lover" has been banned for its sexually explicit nature. Lawrence wrote three versions of the the novel.
9) Moll Flanders
by Daniel Defoe. Oxford. Published in 1722, "Moll Flanders" was one of the earliest novels. The book dramatically depicts the life and misadventures of a young girl, who becomes a prostitute. The book has been challenged on sexual grounds...
10) Candide
by Voltaire. Oxford. Published in 1759, "Candide" was banned by the Catholic Church. Bishop Etienne Antoine wrote: "We prohibit, under canonical law, the printing or sale of these books..."

Blogger dans_inferno said...

Jolly Beggar, you might be interested in dans inferno's newly begun blog. It's dans search for hell...........dans inferno


Blogger dans_inferno said...

And I've read your comments on what this Marcythewhore said. And I'm amazed you don't understand the pun. You called yourself Icarus Goodman. Stephen Dedaelus is a play on the mythical Icarus. I don't know who this Marcythewhore is, but I suspect she might be disappointed that you did not pick up on something so obvious as the pun on Icarus and Joyce's Daedulus.

If you nice people want to search for hell, you are simply going to have to be more on your toes than you were with this whore......dans inferno

Blogger jollybeggar said...

good to know...thx


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