Sunday, September 24, 2006

off the record


okay, so here we go again.
it seems if you really want to see the phone lines light up, just bring up either worship music or homosexuality among a group of evangelical pastors... this time the catalyst was a decision to by wal-mart to become corporate members of the Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce.
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20060821/pl_usnw/national_gay___lesbian_chamber_of_commerce_announces_wal_mart_stores_inc__membership109_xml)
one person made this honest and open statement at the end of an email on a list which invited opinions from many different angles:

"The homosexual community is so suspicious of the Christian community that I am concerned that a boycott would only convince them of our lack of love toward them. But I'd love to hear what other people think about it! These questions always challenge me to rethink my interaction as a Christian with the larger world."

amidst a barrage of, in some cases insightful and in other cases unsightly, comments and opinions on whether or not to boycott wal-mart and the like over their willingness to join said organization, one voice resonnated with the grace of experience, so i wrote the guy to talk more. what i've tried to do is pull some of that ongoing dialogue together here so that it reads a bit like an interview... meet william gardner.

WG: Hi Jolly. Sorry my response took so long. I just got back from a missions trip where we work amongst our own samaritans (ie: acts 1.8) every summer. Then I did a quick family getaway to cottage land. Just got back from that.

JB: hey man. thanks for writing back. i remember hearing of your work from a mutual friend and how it was so obviously Holy Spirit-inspired. love it when God takes on the logistics that would typically hold us back... the same kind of stuff has happened with regard to our missions to sri lanka.

anyway, thank you for your words and, more importantly, i think, the tone of your words. there is so much unlove around- particularly among clergy- that the heart behind a few simple lines here was a cool breeze amidst so much hot air.

WG: Thanks for the kind words. Appreciated!

JB: i have a question, however. context: a guy that had started going to our church asked me to go for lunch about six months ago, so we hooked up at this great little thai place downtown. amidst a whole bunch of other questions and curios, he slipped in a question about my position on gay relationships. didn't think much of it at the time, as the whole lunch felt a bit like an interview- sort of a reverse membership process.

WG: Very cool that you had lunch with him! To me that is the way we are supposed to be. I am going out for a drink with a lesbian who has checked us out on the web and wants to know if she would be welcome at our church.... As she is? Supposed to be going this week. Have another good friend who is a practicing lesbian...errr, actually she is legally married to her partner. She has come a few times to our church and loves the love she feels here.

JB: yeah, well, last sunday he came up at archived me back to our conversation... in particular, the relationship part. then he told me that he is currently in a gay relationship.

WG: Funny how people do that.

JB: right. so, okay, now my rhetoric is being tested. i've blogged a couple times in this direction:

http://e-pistles.blogspot.com/2005/07/others.html
http://northvus.blogspot.com/2006/05/song-for-drella.html

what i am trying to sort out is whether my position held is something that i can maintain publicly amidst possible pressure from those in our church who are spectating... believing in God's grace for themselves without receiving it to overflowing- that others' thirst for it would be quenched through a cup of it given by them in the name of the Lord, ya know?

WG: Yeah, I find people are so low on the giving grace to others scale. Showed in the recent hurly burly online. My goodness- that one guy was attacked by some really stupid comments. I wanted to jump in and call the other guy an asshole. But I have learned... the knives of right wing fundamentalists are very sharp.

JB: i always hold that we are introducing people to Jesus, and that the real work is being done by the Holy Spirit- but what if my friend missed what i was saying when i spoke of sexual purity and how intimate friendships between people of either gender are part of how we share God's love and strength with each other, but that these are not to move to sexual relations... hearing only that "love is love and the pastor said it's okay?"

WG: I think you should not worry about that. That is how we start to want to play the role of something we are not. We are not the Holy Sprit. God is. We are what we are....stumbling, fumbling, bumbling people who ache to dance with God. Indeed we do dance with God. Or rather, God dances with us and lets us stand on His feet as it were. He carries us in this crazy dance. It looks comical, like a little kid standing on his dad's feet does. But what a picture. It makes you smile. It makes you feel warm. Not sappy crap warm. But real warmth. God warmth. That draws people.

Relationship takes time. Trust. In that time and trust, lives are changed. Gently, lovingly, grace-filled-ly.


JB: i remember hearing someone refer to the neighbourhood inwhich your church is situated as being an area with a high gay/lesbian population within its demographic.

WG: Um, we probably have the same percentage that your own neighborhood has. Just some places are a bit safer for people to be honest about who they are.

One of the safest and most honest places I have ever been was a narcotics anonymous meeting with one of my people ( a recovering heroin addict). She wanted me to see her "other church"...her words. She also wanted her other church to see her pastor. They asked me to speak that night, impromptu.

It was awkward as I got up and said: "I am not worthy to speak here because I have listened to all of you speak so stripped down honestly about all kinds of stuff and I feel as though I could slip into some kind of inauthentic bullshit. I do not want to do that in this place. I just want to thank you for letting me be present here tonight. With you. Your stories are precious. Thank you."

That NA meeting was more 'church like' than most churches I have been in over the last 20 years. I was convicted by the reality there. By the presence of God there.

I share that tid bit because, I think a lot of church folks think they are bringing God into a place or situation. That is completely wrong headed. I do not bring God anywhere, He is there ahead of me and asks me to join the wild dance He is already doing in that place.

God is already amongst the Gay people. He just is looking for a few of us to go and be His skin in the situation where He already is.


JB: great story. a nice one to have lived, not simply heard somewhere... i am reminded of one of my favourite bible bits, 1 corinthians 14.24-25, where paul speaks of strangers just showing up 'impromptu' and being so moved by the apparent presence of God at a meeting that they are convicted of the sin in their own life- like what happened for you at the NA gig.

it is important for people to not only feel but actually be loved when they enter God's house- i don't really care who they are because it doesn't seem as though God does.

no- strike that.

i think it is more that God cares deeply about who they are while the people of God often get sidetracked by the sin problems that are so much more evident to the naked eye than the soul being strangled by them is. we fail to see Jesus' blood upon others, finding ourselves ever fixating upon that which our knowledge of good and evil recognizes in others (even if our knowledge of good and evil is skewed by far too much human tradition and history to be objective anyway)... this whole world view being the one thing from which God tried to save us back in the garden anyway.

WG: Yeah. Hey, sorry for blabbering on and on. Thanks for engaging me. I hope you don't mind my being fairly open and honest with you. There are a lot of people in the church world that I would not talk as honestly and real as I just did above. After reading your Warhol blog though, I felt I could be myself with you. Thanks for that.

Blessings and joy be yours!
William.
***

blabbering on and on? no worries from my end... it's what i do best.

but now for some questions with no answers: when, if ever, do we address the whole area of sexuality and fidelity and the like with our gay friends, and how do we do so without coming off all sanctimonious and, as was said above, ready to perform surgery to their current sexual identity with a very sharp right-wing fundamentalist knife?

i keep saying 'they' and 'their' because, within my own sphere i know very few people who are 'out.' there are some natural degrees of social separation that i'm trying to somehow attend to for my part. however, i have had a few frustrating discussions (with one individual in particular) which have brought to articulation some pretty comfortable little prejudiced defaults of others towards clergy. because i am a pastor, i am sometimes relegated by others to as few distinguishable characteristics as your everyday homophobe might for a lesbian... in this view, i am autocratic and judgemental and presumptuously ethnocentric- holding to my own bigotted view of what the scriptures say rather than considering other more open-minded possibilities. i have conceded that this may be true of many in my vocation (thinking of the online skirmish that prompted the conversation with william, for instance) but that one has to be careful not to reverse discriminate...

however, in roll the personal doubts. these brow-beatings have me continually reassessing my own world view, wondering if these relational presumptions are in fact true of me and all that. i don't want them to be. i want to lead everyone who becomes part of our church family in the paths of righteousness, and am eager to discern by God's light, where these paths truly lead and through what terrain.

whatever- tangent. nevermind.

point is, our church is starting to become a place that is investigated every now and then by an openly gay person looking for God... i see this as a blessing because i think it means that God is trusting us with some really spiritually fragile people who have received a lot of heavy disaffirmation in their lives and have somehow heard that our church on the corner is safe.


i want it to continue grow into the identity of a safe place- even for 'others.'
i want the one investigating to sense that this is an environment where we are going after deepening relationships with God and each other and that the Holy Spirit is the one who is doing the convicting.

i guess that i am aware of the 'us and them' scenarios both on and off the record, and am eager to proceed on to the 'we.'

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29 Comments:

Blogger Cinder said...

"these brow-beatings have me continually reassessing my own world view, wondering if these relational presumptions are in fact true of me and all that."

they're not...

"our church is starting to become a place that is investigated every now and then by an openly gay person looking for God... i see this as a blessing because i think it means that God is trusting us with some really spiritually fragile people who have received a lot of heavy disaffirmation in their lives and have somehow heard that our church on the corner is safe."

That is a huge blessing and what the church is supposed to be all about. It should be a safe haven for people to come...the spot where they are accepted and loved simply for who they are and where they are at. It shouldn't be an 'us and them' situation...it should be 'we' moving forward together.

9/24/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

I think it is noble to care about all that are outcast amongst our society...this is good case of it. I think the person you are talking to is very wise about what he said and his advice is proper since we do not play God over souls, so that stance is safe. As far as the fundies go, well they're hypocrites anyways so what they blather out is usually not accepting...ironic really.

9/24/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

yeah, i know, SVS, but the same brush that paints all fundies as hypocrites can paint all gay people as deviant and all pastors as megalomaniacs, right?

putting down the brush and trying to learn how to fingerpaint- actually touching the canvas is so organic, so interactive, so personal- the outcome may very well be abstract expressionism, but hey, action painting beats paint-by-numbers in my view.

9/24/2006  
Blogger marcythewhore said...

Celibacy: One of the three Great Lies.............mtw

9/25/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

What are the other two great lies?

9/25/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

"your cheque is in the mail"
"i gave at the office"
?

9/25/2006  
Blogger marcythewhore said...

Celibacy and The Old and New Testaments in Gideon's Bible:

Now Rocky Raccoon he fell back in his room

Only to find gideons bible

Gideon checked out and he left it no doubt

To help with good rockys revival

9/25/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

The Beatles - Rocky Raccoon...awesome, I listen to that every other day at work.

9/25/2006  
Blogger SteveW said...

JB,

I haven't been here before. I love your discussion with WG.

I don't go to church. One of the things that caused me to leave was a self-righteous pastor who quickly passed judgment on a hungry person who asked us for help because "he appeared to be gay and living in sin with his roommate". Of course it goes a lot deeper than that.

But what you have said here hits me right between the eyes. In my disgust with much of the clergy, especially the evangelical fundamentalist variety, I can often be just as prejudiced as the next hypocrite.

Of course my inclusionary beliefs also help to get me in trouble with many clergy....and maybe that only adds to the tension that exists between us. So be it. I just generaaly stay away from them.

But anyway, I appreciate your attitude and though we may be on different journeys I sense that you are a fair minded and up-front type guy and just wanted to commend you for that and thank you for motivating me to be aware that I might be wise to see if Father wants to do a little more work on my own prejudices.

9/28/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

in my view, we are all growing from knowing each other, right? i'm sure glad that this post made some sense...

shalom

9/28/2006  
Blogger hineini said...

Shitty! Now my Wal-mart boycott is going to be misinterpreted as hate of the homosexual community rather than hate of the greed that exploits foreign slave labour, maintains unjust labour practices, props up the military industrial complex and cripples local communities by leeching out resources, to name just a few symptoms.

9/29/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

hineini, I boycott Wal-Mart for the same reasons also, and I thought the exact same thing when I read that part on this blog.

9/29/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

LOL
yeah- everyone wants to boycott wal-mart for something...

until they run out of mix at 9:55 on a saturday night- suddenly it's integrity dilemma time.

still, always nice to be leaving with a couple giant bottles of coke, some chips and a $6.88 copy of 'three amigos' from the delete bin, hearing a voice from behind me calling 'goodnight, jolly' before the lights go out.
***

all glibness aside, thanks for your comment hineini. i thought similar things when i read the original dialogue:

'what, you mean you haven't already boycotted walmart for something else?'

so the big question is, how does this place stay open if no one shops there?

perhaps this is where we scroll back to the top of my comment and try again:

LOL
yeah- everyone wants to boycott wal-mart for something...

9/29/2006  
Blogger hineini said...

I always try to remember that boycotting wal-mart and many other "activisms/political actions" are a luxery for those of us with too much money. I can afford to spend more for chips, clothing and whatever else one would buy at wal-mart. There are many who save enough money shopping at wal-mart to be able to pay rent at the end of the month, and maybe some groceries.

as an aside, the fact that worship music and homosexuality "light up the phone lines" amongst evangelical pastors sounds ridiculous to me given the situations in Sudan, Iraq, Palestine etc.(this list is so long I better stop with just three). Maybe evangelicalism has nothing to offer these situations, who knows.

9/29/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

Hineini, man that's right up my alley...evangelicalism is becoming a dry well with no real insight into the human condition anymore, it seems more important to talk about the homesexuality issue while right-wing evangelicals back a war of colonialistic efforts (out of America)...it truly is a sad time for the Christian faith, when we partner with poltics to our ignorance.

9/29/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

"Hineini, man that's right up my alley..."

see, i knew you two needed to meet each other. SVS meet H...

9/29/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

He's a great man this Hineini, he recognizes things from a more grander scope that it plays on society, one of the signs of a prophet. Read the prophets of old and you'll see they didn't speak to 'an individual', they addresses a nation.

9/30/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

H says: "Maybe evangelicalism has nothing to offer these situations, who knows."

SVS says: "evangelicalism is becoming a dry well with no real insight into the human condition anymore"

okay, i've got a bit of guilt here because i think that i opened the door to something evil. it probably began when i, at the beginning of this post, mentioned two issues that seem to get (among many many others) evangelical pastors worked into a lather. suddenly there is this big annoyingass moon moving in to eclipse the light of grace that i was trying to share.

dang- and i put it there, didn't i?
sorry everybody- my bad.

i think that, once again, we're painting ornately carved objects with one great big brush. this is, i believe, what stevew was talking about in his own comments above. we have these defaults which apply to 'types of' individuals or institutions that are easier/more convenient/whatever to subscribe to than relational truth... this is also why it's possible someone to hate wal-mart and love the wal-mart greeter! LOL

i have no idea why these two 'issues' seem to inspire such polarity among so many (particularly between those from more conservative theosophical traditions and those from more liberal ones). however, to treat glibly issues that seem to be so effective at drawing lines between people is to miss their true social value, i think.

although my initial comments in this post were made with a smirk, the reality is that in this part of the world (whether it is because we're ridiculously rich and brutally bored or what, i'm not sure... probably a whole nother blog) they do carry with them some pretty heavy weight, whether the weight lifters are evangelical pastors or whomever...

so for starters, let's try this. then we'll just see where it goes from there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

10/01/2006  
Blogger Cinder said...

we are so blessed in this part of the world...yet it seems like we daily take it for granted. the start of that video speaks volumes...society is so busy that even though we might have the time to stop and be there for someone, we often don't.

instead of banding together and working together to be a unified people who goes out...to be there for those in need, to love them, walk alongside them. instead of that, we waste our energy fighting and disagreeing amongst each other, focusing on stuff that's really not as important as we make it out to be...i'm guilty of this on a daily basis.

"whether it is because we're ridiculously rich and brutally bored or what, i'm not sure..."

i'm not sure either, but i know that i want to change my course to things that are more important and really do require the weight and devotion...that though is a whole lot easier said than done.

10/01/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

"okay, i've got a bit of guilt here because i think that i opened the door to something evil" (JB)

What evil exactly? I am not sure I follow the dialogue? Is it because we questioned Wal-Mart? Is it because we questioned Evangelicalism? I see nothing wrong with raiding questions or even disagreeing.

"we have these defaults which apply to 'types of' individuals or institutions that are easier/more convenient/whatever to subscribe to than relational truth... this is also why it's possible someone to hate wal-mart and love the wal-mart greeter! LOL" (JB)

I get the point and agree 100% with the idea the individual is important and not so much the corporate entity. That being said, to turn our eyes away from things 'wrong' with business or the mainstream church is also irresponsible. Not saying nothing about the individual but about the system, 2 different things but I see the need to change things...on both big business & mainstream church. It doesn't mean judging the individual who participate in whatever I may not agree with, I still care about them but I think it's also worth addressing the problem with systems.

The hug campaign thing I don't really understand, it's an absolutely nice gesture and I think reaching people on a personal level is of huge importance (if that was the point of the video link). I think it is 2 different things when discussing relations and structures, and maybe I am wrong...maybe the change is coming from the individual.

10/01/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

"I see nothing wrong with raiding questions or even disagreeing."

nope- totally there with you. to question is to verify that there is grey matter activity, yeah?

i think that there is a difference between creating a critical environment (condusive to open discourse and the free exploration of varying and differing points of view) and just being cynical. basic cynicism is too easy- my struggle is to see hope without being blind to the pain and disparity that seem to be everywhere.
***

by the way- huge thanks, H, for providing me with that great quote about wal-mart boycotts being a luxury that only the rich can afford. tossed that one into my talk this morning at church as we looked briefly at maslow's hierarchy of needs...

10/01/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

a quick note to a friend:
(whether it relates directly to this discussion or not is of no consequence- apply or ignore at will)
***

ask me what my favourite u2 song is... go on.

although they've written so many, the usual stuff is found on one of the two 'hits' discs.

nope, not mine.

my favourite is 'acrobat' off of achtung baby. i often quote it or refer to it. it carries the truth about many things in a musically dramatic, albeit small, package.

so don't let the bastards drag you down, man. it is not the people who have your heart's PIN number... it's those damned sellouts that still hang around because either there's not enough herds of pigs around or because we've already asked Jesus to leave the region.

legion was a victim- he was flesh and blood like you and me.
***

Don't believe what you hear, don't believe what you see
If you just close your eyes you can feel the enemy.
When I first met you girl, you had fire in your soul.
What happened t'your face of melting snow
Now it looks like this!
And you can swallow or you can spit
You can throw it up, or choke on it
And you can dream, so dream out loud
You know that your time is coming round
So don't let the bastards grind you down.

No, nothing makes sense, nothing seems to fit.
I know you'd hit out if you only knew who to hit.
And I'd join the movement
If there was one I could believe in
Yeah, I'd break bread and wine
If there was a church I could receive in.
'Cause I need it now.
To take the cup
To fill it up, to drink it slow.
I can't let you go.

And I must be an acrobat
To talk like this and act like that.
And you can dream, so dream out loud
And don't let the bastards grind you down.

What are we going to do now it's all been said?
No new ideas in the house, and every book's been read.

And I must be an acrobat
To talk like this and act like that.
And you can dream, so dream out loud
And you can find your own way out.
And you can build, and I can will
And you can call, I can't wait until
You can stash and you can seize
In dreams begin responsibilities
And I can love, and I can love
And I know that the tide is turning 'round
So don't let the bastards grind you down.

10/02/2006  
Blogger hineini said...

I'm not really sure what I'm hearing so corect me if this is wrong but are being encoraged to pursue "relational truth" because other things don't matter? I think I agree with this in part but the problem is that when my friend "jim" goes to social services for his daily $8.37 and asks for enough to buy a daily bus pass he is told "no, you get $8.37 a day". Its true that a person hands him the cash but its not the person who says "no" its the institution, and the insitution doesn't have a face, the basis for relationship. Individuals interact with insitutions daily and often suffer under their facelessness whether thats wal-mart, the pentegon, corrections canada or the bank.

If I did not critically engage in opposition and challenge to this/these instituion(s) then I lose something of the "relational truth" I can recieve from my friend. I don't boycott wal-mart or criticize evangleicalism at the expense of the relationship with my neighbour, I boycott and criticize because of that relationship with my neighbour.

The "Free Hug" video is a telling example. The personal relationships being developed were threatened by structural opposition and instead of packing up his sign a pettition was started. The effect of the petition was that the relationships could continue to be fostered and NEW! relationships could be forged (the security guards) that would have been impossible before.

10/02/2006  
Blogger SocietyVs said...

Again I agree with Heinini, then again my faith tosses likes the waves of the sea.

10/02/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

H says "the insitution doesn't have a face, the basis for relationship. Individuals interact with insitutions daily and often suffer under their facelessness whether thats wal-mart, the pentegon, corrections canada or the bank."

nice. i've gotta find a copy of that levinas book so i can digest it properly! i can hear his voice behind your words...

(on an aside, i wonder if there is any chance that people will hear Jesus' voice behind my words? there is this strange role play that i think you alluded to once in an email where we have difficulty deciding who is the Jesus figure in any relational interaction. regularly we are goaded with the question 'what would Jesus do?' yet on the other hand, matthew 25 reminds us that the one in need is Jesus... yeah, that's a tangent)

the other day a friend of mine was telling me of his frustration with social services and the fact that people become 'files' piled up on someone's desk, rather than actual faces and names of human beings in need.

i wonder how the overloaded case worker who swims through those files as quickly as due process will allow feels about this assessment of his or her work.

the frustrating thing is that, rich as we are as a country, economics and bureaucracy (two 'entities' that are very real, but incredibly abstract and completely faceless) seem to be increasingly successful at robbing everyone here of their ability to perceive the face of the other... all in the name of right-thinking fiscal responsibility.

perhaps the only solution to the fissures that seem to exist between people is to enact love and grace as practically as we can in service of the other. to be a loving neighbour.

when love calls (me) to give, then (i) must give. when love calls (me) to go, (i) must go. when love calls (me) to speak, (i) must speak and when love calls (me) to be silent then (i) must be silent.

if love is at the centre of justice, then the justice will be true. however, if the activity is driven by anything but love, i'm not sure it is justice- don't know what it is, though... perhaps simply philanthropy? philantherapy?

***
VITO CORLEONE
We've known each other many years, but this is the first time you came to me for counsel, for help. I can't remember the last time that you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee, even though my wife is godmother to your only child. But let's be frank here: you never wanted my friendship. And uh, you were afraid to be in my debt.

BONASERA
I didn't want to get into trouble.

VITO CORLEONE
I understand. You found paradise in America, had a good trade, made a good living. The police protected you; and there were courts of law. And you didn't need a friend of me. But uh, now you come to me and you say -- "Don Corleone give me justice." -- But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me Godfather. Instead, you come into my house on the day my daughter is to be married, and you uh ask me to do murder, for money.

BONASERA
I ask you for justice.

VITO CORLEONE
That is not justice; your daughter is still alive.

BONASERA
Then they can suffer then, as she suffers... How much shall I pay you?

VITO CORLEONE (stands, turning his back toward Bonasera)
Bonasera... Bonasera... What have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? Had you come to me in friendship, then this scum that ruined your daughter would be suffering this very day. And that by chance if an honest man such as yourself should make enemies,then they would become my enemies. And then they would fear you.

BONASERA
Be my friend --
(then, after bowing and the Don shrugs)
-- Godfather?

VITO CORLEONE (after Bonasera kisses his hand)
Good... Some day, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But uh, until that day -- accept this justice as a gift on my daughter's wedding day.

10/02/2006  
Blogger Cinder said...

"the other day a friend of mine was telling me of his frustration with social services and the fact that people become 'files' piled up on someone's desk, rather than actual faces and names of human beings in need...i wonder how the overloaded case worker who swims through those files as quickly as due process will allow feels about this assessment of his or her work." (jb)

that's a loaded quote. you know, i worked for what was known as the 'slowest' department in the government and because of that job, i never want to be employed by most 'institutions' ever again. you were looked down on (by both the institution and the public eyes) if you went slower and actually put faces with the work, showed proper people skills, but if you worked too hard, you were looked down on for working your ass off. i'm not saying i won't 'do life' with the people who work there, it'll just be after work hours and outside of the 'institution'.

"when love calls (me) to give, then (i) must give. when love calls (me) to go, (i) must go. when love calls (me) to speak, (i) must speak and when love calls (me) to be silent then (i) must be silent. if love is at the centre of justice, then the justice will be true." (jb)

that is the underlying answer, but sometimes things are easier to speak than to act out on a day-to-day basis...at least for me that seems to be sad truth.

10/02/2006  
Blogger hineini said...

after giving a lecture on his philosophy Emmanuel Levinas accepted questions for the audience and in his answer to one of the questions he made the statement that "there are some tears the bureaucrat cannot see". I think this is very applicable for our conversation.

Levinas is not saying that bureaucrats are bad people, not at all. I think what he is getting at is that when we operate from inside an institution, when we are the hands of that institution, there are just certain things we are not able to do, certain options we can't see. Whether this is because of mandates, regulations or guidelines, or scope of practice we will find ourselves limited in our possible responses and these limits will necessarily exclude people with certain needs that confront us.

Cinder, I'm sorry you had such a bad experiance, some of my worst experiences have also been occupying a certain position that made me unable to offer what seemed to be needed in a situation without "giving it all away", without breaking all the rules.

It seems that maybe another posting on justice might be in order as we seem to be struggling with trying to apply love.

10/02/2006  
Blogger Cinder said...

H, i look at my comments and man, it's really just a matter of the season i'm in right now. my experience really was eye-opening...having a hard-work ethic vs. fitting into your 'work description' and the two didn't always mix.

jollybeggar's posting of 'acrobat' was actually pretty timely in this post...it speaks heavily about living in today's society...living in general.

those words, mixed with the fact that love is truly the bottom line in justice and life. this passage speaks a lot of truth...makes me check myself at the door, knowing i need to be daily living with love in the centre of all things...

"If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

Love never gives up. Love cares more for others than for self. Love doesn't want what it doesn't have. Love doesn't strut, doesn't have a swelled head, doesn't force itself on others, isn't always "me first," Doesn't fly off the handle, doesn't keep score of the sins of others, doesn't revel when others grovel, takes pleasure in the flowering of truth, puts up with anything, trusts God always,
always looks for the best, never looks back, but keeps going to the end. (1 Corinthians 13:1-7)

10/02/2006  
Blogger jollybeggar said...

"there are some tears the bureaucrat cannot see"

holy smokes! great soundbyte... as is the phrase "applied love"

you know what? i have been thinking about this for a long time: people often define certain commonly used words differently. the usage works, but carries with it multiple meanings.

so which is more important to communication- the message sent or the message received?

trick question, of course.
in my view, both are of equal importance.

10/02/2006  

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