Getting Tough?
hey gang
i'm gonna go out on a limb here and post a note that hineini sent me recently.
it prompted some pretty cool discussion on legalism and what the role of law actually was/is/is to be for the nation of israel- the pharisees in particular- which i might post sometime...
(jump in anytime h to clarify)
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The Gospel of John 8:1-11 recounts a story most of us are very familiar with. A crowd brings a woman to Jesus telling him “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery”. The story tells how the teachers of the law remind Jesus of the harsh punishment that the law given to Moses demands in the situation. I can hear the fear in the crowd that approaches Jesus, these are life and death things. Not only is the woman’s life at stake but so is the well being of the community and its members. The law given to Moses is what held the community together for centuries. The story says the people who brought the woman to Jesus were using the situation as a trap for Jesus. Probably, many of them saw Jesus as a threat to how things were, the health and safety of their communities and their faith. Maybe some of them hoped that Jesus wasn’t as radical as they had heard, that he really didn’t want to change things too much and maybe they were offering Jesus an opportunity to ease their fears, an olive branch if you will.
Well, we know how the story ends. Jesus, without denying the importance of the law, instead urges leniency, revealing to everyone there that they were all law breakers; they were all in a position deserving of punishment. In a truly wonderful gesture, Jesus, instead of demanding punishment for all, watches those who would condemn face their own faults until there is no condemnation for anyone, simply forgiveness. “Has no one condemned you?” Jesus asks her and when she replies “No one” he says “Then neither do I condemn you.”.
It was this story that passed through my mind when I received the last mailing from my local Member of Parliament (MP). The mailing entitled “Cracking Down On Crime” described the parties eagerness to “get tough” on “criminals“. I’m not sure why but the image of that woman, cowering at Jesus’ feet, probably pretty certain she was going to die, stayed with me as I read through the mailing. I could hear the crowd demanded Jesus “get tough” with the “criminal” as I read how new laws were being readied that seek to punish people even further. In the end though, as I finished reading the party’s ideas it’s Jesus, and his soft, kind and forgiving words to that very vulnerable woman that gets me thinking that “getting tough” on “criminals” might not be what I’m called to support.
posted by jollybeggar at
4:27 PM
23 Comments:
First off, as a point of clarification, that story is highly contested to not be the actual 'words of Christ' and noted to be an addition by later scribes. But besides that I'll comment.
I think the story stresses mercy over judgment, which is a gospel value anyways so I see how the story made it in. Mercy is the higher value in terms of judgment so I support endeavors of the like. However, Jesus is pretty straight about criminals and at one point says about going to jail 'you will not get out until you pay the last penny' (or do the crime, serve the time - also a street value). So I think in some circumstances jail is a warranted judgment...does is rehabilitate is another question altogether.
But my stand on being tough on crime is similar to that of the writer, extend a hand of mercy first and if that fails (or they reject it), let them serve the time they so much accept. Getting tough on crime usually translates into very little anyways (from what I have seen and does little to curb crime). But I hope by getting tough they mean more programs of rehab that might help the offender come to terms with their crimes...examples include healing circles, mediation, and prison to work/education programs.
i agree with you both...as Society said, there are circumstances which jail is a warranted judgement...there do have to be consequences or judgements for actions, but what those are is a huge question.
i don't think dishing out even tougher sentences is the way to go. you can put people behind bars and give longer sentences, but sentences with absolutely no rehabilitation or direction on how to change their ways and lead them onto a different path is a huge waste.
the focus needs to be on counselling and rehabilitation programs and integrating people back into society. a crime might have been committed, but it's really only a symptom of what's deep in the heart and that's where the healing and focus need to be.
"the focus needs to be on counselling and rehabilitation programs and integrating people back into society."
i think that this was what has come to be known as Jesus' discipleship (spiritual mentorship) process.
"i think that this was what has come to be known as Jesus' discipleship (spiritual mentorship) process."
yeah...it just needs to be out there in a much bigger scale. the prominant societial view that criminals need to be behind bars was not what He had in mind.
i think people have to weigh heavily the implications of court, jail, etc...the victims often get hurt as bad or worse through the process. i know personally when faced with what route to choose,that one wasn't worth the fight...forgiveness and peace was ultimately the better choice...but as was told to me, that's not always the best option and i was nuts to choose it...i disagree, but everyone's entitle to their own free will and thought.
this world seems like such a mess so many days to me...i guess that would bode for the importance of having a voice in the whole electoral process.
I suppose when I first wrote this thing down the big thing that stuck out to me was the dehumanization of the woman in the parable and the people labeled "criminals" in the political rhetoric and in the above posts it seems. I'm not ready to domesticate this hopeful story by saying that this radical forgiveness offered by Jesus only works some of the time and that when that fails, we need to imprison people or some other form of punishment. Somehow, justice got coupled with punishment but here in this story, ficticious or not, is an alternative, admittedly radical, dangerous and demanding of all of us, but an alternative none-the-less.
"the focus needs to be on counselling and rehabilitation programs and integrating people back into society" (cinder)
I can agree with this as long as "rehabilitation" isn't simply making "them" into "us". Deviation from the norm will often get people into legal trouble but this doesn't mean that deviation is negative. I'm all for offering help but in my opinion there is something very wrong about coerced "rehabilitation" (in all its forms)
"Somehow, justice got coupled with punishment but here in this story, ficticious or not, is an alternative, admittedly radical, dangerous and demanding of all of us, but an alternative none-the-less." (hineini)
it might be radical, dangerous and demanding, but it takes that to change the course of things and really...i think it's a good alternative...but that's how i am.
"I can agree with this as long as "rehabilitation" isn't simply making "them" into "us". Deviation from the norm will often get people into legal trouble but this doesn't mean that deviation is negative. I'm all for offering help but in my opinion there is something very wrong about coerced "rehabilitation" (in all its forms)" (hineini)
i agree you with on this one...coercing or forcing someone into 'rehabilitation' is very wrong. the whole making 'them' into 'us'...we're all unique, in different places and one program isn't gonna cut it. i just think that if there is a need for programs to be in place, at least have enough of them...so that if people want the resources, they are there for them.
Co-erced rehab...picky picky picky. It's the same assaying as children we are forced to go to school for the well being of our education, we really have no choice. Now not everyone takes advantage of the gift of education (due to coercion and enforcement) so they drop out when 'free will' kicks in (age 16). However, due to that enforcement some actually continue on afterwards into bigger and better things with education, realizing the goodness within education. This is comparable to enforced programming within prisons, some might benefit even if most don't...to me that's one less criminal mind to deal with.
In some aspects I agree that 'co-ercion' and 'enforcement' don't work quite well but at the same time if the programs were available do you think prisoners are going to pass up the help? Well. I know for a fact they don't. I have a buddy fresh out of jail now in university, going for a Sociology degree. How did he do it? Grade 12 upgrading programs and religious programming offered within the prison walls. Even prisoners get fed up with being losers too.
"I'm not ready to domesticate this hopeful story by saying that this radical forgiveness offered by Jesus only works some of the time and that when that fails, we need to imprison people or some other form of punishment." (hineini)
i had a question posed to me last night on this whole post and the conversation which has ensued...do you think there are cases where forgiveness might not be enough, especially in crimes where the innocence of children are taken away or they are changed forever by shadows of abuse?
I like the story and the ideal of forgiveness needs to play a high part in our ethics, no doubts whatsoever there (actually I see it as the basis of the gospel ethics). But sometimes crime has to be 'paid for' and Cinder makes a good point (ex: murder, rape, and child molestation)...these crimes I think have to be paid for since they 'took something' from the other person. In adultery, a fairly tame example, two comsenting people chose to ruin a marriage...quite easily forgiveable. But I think the ethic is something that needs to be our proverbial back-bone.
I guess I would want to say from the beginning that forgiveness is an extremely personal thing. I could never imagine telling someone they needed to, or should forgive an injury that they suffered. I also think that forgiveness for an injury can't come from anywhere other than the one who suffered the injury.
I also wanted to mention the high stakes of the story in question. When I tried to look at the historical context of the parable, I was quite amazed at just how radical Jesus comes across. Remembering that the Jewish community was under a considerable amount of oppression by the occupying Romans, the health of the community would have been of utmost importance. Adultery would have risked concieveing and birthing children outside the community, sacrificing future generations and lineage, putting a whole people's saftey and even its continued existence in jeopardy.
"But sometimes crime has to be 'paid for'... (ex: murder, rape, and child molestation)...these crimes I think have to be paid for since they 'took something' from the other person" (societyvs)
What I took from the parable is that it offered an alternative to the "settling of accounts" sort of thinking when it comes to injuries being suffered by the community. "Common sense" and social norms demand punishment for these injuries and it seems like this has always been the way it is. We never seem to actually question the legitimacy or rightness of prisons and the punishment of certain people. Part of that thinking is that its difficult to think of a wrong not needing punishment. I like this story because it offers an opportunity or possibility; a wrong without punishment.
In my opinion the other reason we have embraced this punishment model is because people who cause injury whether to a community or an individual quickly get devalued and so its easier to see them "justifiably hurt" in response. Its easy to concieve of "criminals" or "sinners" getting punished, much easier than if they remained the unique person they were before.
Life would be easier without prisons I agree, but I come from a place where criminals need to be kept in check somehow, the law does that and they impose prison sentences. Now do all sentences deserve prison, no...but some people need to be 'taken out of society' (which is all a prison does).
I think prisons exist because we can't repay some crimes what they deserve (in the demands of justice) and if we could that would be sick...for example rape would be a weird one. But murder is payable if the law so chose to do so (which seems heartless but 'eye for an eye' was a law at one point). I think God addresses justice and even says 'it's important' (or as humans we need to keep our nature in check). If I kill somoene I deserve 'death' (that's my opinion of life), it's only fair even it if it seems 'inhumane' (it looks justice in the eyes and gives back what it can).
But all that aside, I am not about prisons and jails that do nothing for the individual. I also agree that we need to take the high value of justice (forgiveness and mercy), which I live by and have ingrained in my life. But I recognize the need for justice, in a victim's heart...it's also a street value (the 'eye for an eye' thing or retribution). You see, not all humans know a loving God and have the grace to forgivem what is to happen to them? Should God ignore them and their demand for justice? No. Thus law systems exist to deal with these offenders.
However what the church judges people for (ex: not confessing Christ, missing church, not praying enough, etc) these things are nothing and are not condemnable offences warranting of hell-fire (this is called un-fair judgment) or of even a slap on the wrist. Now if someone rapes my mother there is some 'hell fire' with that crime...I want to kill that dude (anger) and he made her experience a typr of hell (fear). This crime warrants hell-fire or some type of justice, since it is asked for before almigthy God. The law steps in and imprisons that 'rapist' and rightfully so. In time forgiveness will come, but if I caught him immediately, there would be more blood than forgiveness. Sometimes justice is warranted.
Let me try to clarify still further what I meant.
"I think prisons exist because we can't repay some crimes what they deserve (in the demands of justice)." (societyvs)
This is the idea that I see being challenged in the parable I wrote about. The traditional notion of justice is that breaking the law requires a punishment of some sort. This doesn't have to be the case. Thats the radicalness of what Jesus did for the woman who was facing execution because she broke the law. "Common sense", "human nature", or cultural norms say we should hate our enemies, Jesus says to love them. The same "common sense", "human nature", cultural norms say that if someone hurts someone then they need to be hurt back. Jesus challenges this and says "No, it doesn't have to be that way."
"Should God ignore them and their demand for justice? No." (societyvs)
You answered no to that question like it was common sense (or thats at least how I read it ;0 ) but we see in the story about Jesus that the answer isn't so simple. The point I am trying to make that a lack of punishment doesn't mean that the transgression of the law is being ignored. I'd also like to point out that often when people use the word justice they often mean simply punishment or negative consequence. Is it not possible to make things right without those things? What I also see in the story is that justice was there too! A rightness was experienced by those who were there and it didn't have to involve creating another injury. The woman wasn't spared from justice nor did she escape justice, she experianced justice!
These ideas of justice freed from violence/punishment are what I see modeled in the story. What made it all the more striking was what the conservative party was trying to sell me. The "get tough on crime" idea seems to sell well to the christian community which kinda baffles me to be honest. Maybe we like our vengence, even though we're told it's not supposed to be ours, like some ancient tree once.
'These ideas of justice freed from violence/punishment are what I see modeled in the story'
yep- somehow we have accepted the notion that the only justice that is meaningful is that of violence and retribution...
the only violent act (correct me if i'm off on this one) that Jesus demonstrated was that day with the whip where he rose angrily against the those who were profiteering in the temple by exploiting the poor and the needy in their quest for communion with God through covenent obedience.
however, this is not to say that the justice that Jesus sought for all humankind was without violence. he allowed violence to be enacted upon him physically that we would all be given opportunity to be spared something spiritually comparable at 'the end of the age.'
but here we all go, marching around 'as Gods' (had to slip genesis3 in here somewhere), flogging each other into submission with our awareness of right and wrong as it pertains to everybody else, living out a 'gospel' of cold judgement and self-righteous condemnation and wondering why people aren't knocking our doors down in the middle of the night crying 'what must i do to be saved?'
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(this, apparently, is what happens when i take a couple of days off of posting... gotta get some balance! lol)
Well, my main goal was to try and show that its possible to concieve of justice without punishment and violence rather than trying to make comments on violence in general. Thats a whole other post
the only violent act (correct me if i'm off on this one) that Jesus demonstrated was that day with the whip where he rose angrily against the those who were profiteering in the temple...(jollybeggar)
Whether this is the only instance of Jesus acting with some violence depends a lot on your definition of violence I guess. There are some other instances of disputed "violence" but the instance in the temple seems to be the clearest example of physical violence, at least against other humans.
wondering why people aren't knocking our doors down in the middle of the night crying 'what must i do to be saved?' (jollybeggar)
this made me chuckle quite a bit! I think the reason no one is asking that question is that the cat has been freed from its bag, no one really knows what we must do to be saved.
"Whether this is the only instance of Jesus acting with some violence depends a lot on your definition of violence I guess..."
yeah, good point. definitions, implications and inferences can get pretty dodge-y sometimes.
if only all of those LSD lab experiments in the early sixties had yielded their hoped-for telepathic fruit...
Justice is not something we can take lightly and seems to be quite the subject in either testament (and the Quran). However, I think Hineini shoots for the highest value in the ideal (mercy and forgiveness) and on that I will also hang my hat.
i beg to differ- i love hineini and everything, but i think Jesus shot higher...
we are still trying to comprehend the height and depth and breadth of his example.
Could you ennunciate for us jollybeggar just what you mean by "Jesus shot higher" could you tell us what that looks like?
so you're asking me to clearly articulate that of which i have just admitted "we are still trying to comprehend the height and depth and breadth of his example..."??
uhm- okay, how about this?
"...And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God."
(eph3.17-19)
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"...And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
(phil2.8-11)
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"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."
(john 15.13)
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yep, there i go, citing scripture out of context. anyway, that's what i was thinking when i typed that comment.
don't worry- i still love ya...
I was only saying Heinini (within the convo at hand) shot for the highest ideal (that ideal coming from Jesus in John chapter 8)...which I also agree with (even though I raised some points of consideration). Not saying nothing about Heinini shooting higher than Jesus - no comparison thing going on in my words...sorry if it seemed that way (damn writing anyways).
no worries... it didn't seem that way- i was just returning a serve.
but i like what you have said here about shooting for the ideal that Jesus established. nice point of clarity. i don't think i understood that in the earlier comment.
this is the same kinda silly out of context soundbyting that got john lennon in hot water when he made a remark about the beatles being 'more popular than Jesus.'
i've got to think first and THEN type or it all comes out wrong.
i tend to think of judgment and punishment on two levels - spiritual and physical. was jesus speaking to how punishment should be set up by the worldly courts or how we as christians should punish (or not punish as it would seem) in our hearts spiritually. if we can separate the two kinds of judgment, it may make more sense. while we are asked to forgive spiritually, we must allow the worldly court system to do punish as it sees fit. just a few verses later jesus addresses the two kinds of judgment;
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. John 8:15,16
my thoughts on this may be tested somewhat as i have to appear for jury selection in 8 days. lord be with me.
"we must allow the worldly court system to do punish as it sees fit." (brotherken)
Why? This was the whole point of the post, to question this assumption. Can you give at least some reasons to support this? If you'll read above, I ask whether Jesus' words don't offer a way to seperate justice from punishment (and especially violence) and with the immensity of violence surrounding us today I am looking for every possible hope offered.
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